Workshops are now open for booking 

Once booked into the conference the link to book your workshop(s) can be found:

  • via your home page by scrolling down to "Upcoming Events You Are Booked Into" (just beneath the Gift Aid information) or
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Workshop Programme Summary

Friday Workshops – 11:45 to 13:15

Nick Barnes, Jon Hall and 'C'‘Enabling exits through creativity and peer support’

Susie Black –‘Exploring the concept of generic mapping: Rapid containment and engagement’

Jason Hepple – ‘Working authentically and creatively with CAT in a group’

Siva Suresh & Ewa Debska – ‘Living in a Collage - how being a ‘foreign’ therapist can shape the therapy process in CAT? Dilemma - Fit in or Stand out or find a middle ground’

Spyros Karvounis - 'Being creative versus being positive (Empathy to whom, the suffering person or the suffering psyche?)'

Vicky Petratou – 'You, me and and the play space we share’

Cheryl Delisser and Vikki Aadahl – 'How Modelling Vulnerability as a Supervisor can allow for more Confident Supervisees, Therapists and Clients'

Steve Potter – 'Me and my identities: integrating a holistic sense of a 'distributed' self through moments of mindful mapping'


Saturday Workshops – 11:10 to 12:40

Theresa Turner – 'Letting the CAT out of the Bag: Using a Cognitive Analytic Approach with people with Autistic Spectrum Disorder'

Annie Nehmad - 'Hypnotic and Self-hypnotic Scaling'

Clive Turpin – 'Café CAT: An open group conversation about therapist authenticity: what it means, looks like and how it might make a difference'

Ella Knight - 'The Space Between: What happens if we start ‘being’ and stop ‘doing’? ' 

Liz McCormick – 'How to enjoy writing a prose reformulation and the value of matching words to feelings in CAT'

Cheryl Delisser – 'Laughter - An Exit for Narcissism'


Workshop Abstracts and Presenter Biographies

Provisional - subject to change

Friday Workshops – 11:45 to 13:15

Nick Barnes, Jon Hall and 'C' - Enabling exits through creativity and peer support


Jon and Nick have been working together over the last couple of years, developing ways of working that seek to shift the perspective of how we see those with emotional distress and mental health needs from within the safety of our services. Often those that access and engage with services are viewed through a framing of their distress, difficulties and deficits, and seldom given the opportunity to demonstrate their strengths and abilities and seldom given the space to work through their assets.

The CREW project has sort to challenge this stance within services, offering opportunities for people to access support for their emotional wellbeing through art and music, as they progress on their journey of recovery and re-connecting. The CREW programme allowed for people to work 1:1 and in groups through art and music and to eventually contribute to the running and delivery of a performance for friends, family and staff – a performance that allowed the spot light to be shone on participants talents.

But through the evolution of a culture of peer support that emerged through these performance event, then benefits and impact of involvement and participation became to be significant and sustainable for many of the programe’s participants.

Through the narrative of one young person, who we hope will join in the delivery of this workshop, Jon and Nick are looking to describe a journey from engagement in CAT informed work , both in the clinic and the community,  through to participation in the CREW programme, and eventually, allowing the young person to going on and become a peer support worker. This is a narrative about engagement and understanding, but it is also a story about creativity and connection. The workshop will look to demonstrate this narrative and will be delivered through music, video and spoken word.


Nick Barnes is a Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist who has worked in London for over 15 years within CAMHS services. He trained as a cognitive analytic therapist on the North London Training Programme. He is also an Honorary Senior Lecturer at University College London. Nick has spent much of his time looking to find ways of working with young people that are both meaningful and engaging – working where young people are at, rather than where services want them to be at.

Jon Hall is a Nordoff-Robbins trained music therapist, music producer and founder of Outsider Music. After training at the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and the Royal College of Music in London, Jon went on to be a successful artist, song writer and record producer. Using his passion for music and belief in human potential, Jon brings his skills as music therapist, music producer and musician, working with clients with mental health issues, brain injury and learning disabilities. Jon is currently working on a music therapy and co-production project for BEHMHT.

C is a young person who has been involved with the CREW programme and has also trained as a peer support worker. As well as planning to go to university in September, she is also an exceptional musician

The CREW programme was run at the Clarendon Recovery College in North London from Sept 2016    to Sept 2017, with Jon offering the music therapy role and Ben Wakeling providing the space for engagement with art. This project was funded through the BEH-MHT Dragons Den initiative.


Susie Black -Exploring the concept of generic mapping: Rapid containment and engagement


This workshop will introduce the concept of generic mapping for different groups.  Maps for mild – moderate problems (and physical health), staff groups and also for complex cases will be introduced, and participants will be given time to consider the application of these maps within their own work settings. 

The idea of using a generic map emerged out of my work in a cancer support centre where staff were struggling to engage with and support people attending open access self-referral with high levels of distress and mild to moderate levels of complexity.  The maps are a way of supporting nursing staff to contain distress and facilitate a basic degree of understanding for patients of their difficulties in a short space of time (generally no more than an hour). The aim is to get patients to return for more support should they need it, engage in other aspects of the programme of support offered by Maggie’s, or to move them to a position where further support is not required. These maps have proved very successful (anecdotally), both in containing patient distress, but also in supporting staff in feeling more skilled at providing emotional support within this setting. 

A second version of the map has been developed to describe the common relational patterns impacting on medical, nursing and other health professionals.  It is designed to be used with both small and large groups of staff. This has proved very valuable and feedback has been very positive.

The third map is a generic map for complex cases, aiming at supporting early engagement pending further and more in-depth therapy and more personalised maps.   It is hoped that the idea of generic mapping can be developed and that workshop participants will contribute to a discussion about ways of using these ideas creatively.

It is my view that using generic maps ‘normalises’ distress in a way that is containing and supports early engagement and allows further exploration of more complex issues in a gentle way. In this way, the therapist can readily place themselves on the map, thus promoting therapist authenticity.


Susie is a Clinical Psychologist and Accredited CAT therapist and trainer.  She jointly runs South Wales CAT practitioner training and works at Maggie’s Cancer Support Centre in Swansea.  Susie trained in Clinical Psychology in Sheffield, and previously worked in Rotherham, and in Mansfield in Adult Mental Health focusing on working with complex cases, using CAT both in inpatient and outpatient settings.  Susie completed her CAT practitioner training in 2008 at ACAT North, her supervisor training in 2014, and the South Wales CAT course took its first intake in 2016. Susie has run groups for people with a diagnosable personality disorder (as part of the LANDSCAPED project in Mansfield). She has worked in acute inpatient mental health services supporting both patients and staff, and now works in physical health care in a charity closely linked to the NHS. Her work involves direct patient work, group support, staff support within the charity and facilitating an understanding of the impact of working in cancer care amongst health professionals.  This has led to an interest in the impact of working in stressful environments more generally and in the value of generic mapping to support and facilitate understanding in large groups of staff in a short space of time.  She is in the process of evaluating the impact of these maps on patients and staff in collaboration with Maggie’s and Swansea University Psychology Department.


Jason Hepple - Working authentically and creatively with CAT in a group


This will be an experiential workshop. Participants will be asked to join in a CAT Group as either role-played clients, co-therapists or as observers. Jason will demonstrate how past trauma, recent procedural re-enactments and enactments within the group can be brought into dialogue and mapped in the Group.

There will be a chance for discussion and reflection.

This workshop will be dedicated to Scott Bowdrey


Jason Hepple has been at the forefront of developing the CAT model in Groups. With the late Scott Bowdrey he has run an open ‘Dialogic’ CAT Men’s Group in Yeovil, Somerset, which focuses on the Group’s role in the emotional re-processing of trauma and the mapping of events and enactments as they unfold.

Jason Hepple is a CAT Psychotherapist and Trainer.


Hepple J (2012) Cognitive Analytic Therapy in a Group. Reflections on a dialogic approach. British Journal of Psychotherapy 28(4): 474-495.

Hepple J and Bowdrey S (2015) Cognitive Analytic Therapy in an open dialogic group – adaptations and advantages. Reformulation 43:16-19.


Siva Suresh & Ewa Debska - Living in a Collage - how being a ‘foreign’ therapist can shape the therapy process in CAT? Dilemma - Fit in or Stand out or find a middle ground


In keeping with CAT’s theory of the self as one that is culturally formed, we recognise the need to be very aware of the external reality the patient develops and inhabits.

General aim

Having been socially formed in a culture and society different from the dominant culture here in the UK, we aim to reflect on,

  • what we bring from our own culture to the therapeutic relationship, as
  • we respond to the individual and their stories.
  • how life here, has transformed us.

We hope that this might lead us and participants of the workshop to become more aware of these ‘voices’ that might affect the therapeutic relationship and other aspects in therapy, thereby allowing for more therapist authenticity

More specific objectives

Build a frame of reference for what we mean by ‘culture

Being able to map ‘culture’ and ‘social assumptions’ - in relation to the therapist and patient

Critic or Agent - of wider societal norms?


Sivakami Suresh Prabalkumari

I am a Trainee Psychiatrist, presently working and training within the NHS. I am also training to be a

CAT Practitioner at the St. Thomas’ Hospital CAT Practitioner Course.  Well into my second year of

training, I am gradually finding my feet. My most recent interest is ‘culture’ and being more conscious of it in therapy. Born and raised in South India, an external reality different from the UK, is an important source of this interest.

Ewa Debska

I am a trainee psychiatrist in South London and Maudsley Trust and a trainee psychotherapist in the second year of St Thomas CAT Practitioner Course. Being a double trainee is charged with the discovery and reflection on the work I do but also with who I am wearing different hats.  I grew up in Poland which is culturally a different reality to the one I am now living in but this interface became a fascinating theme for me.  I am currently focusing on studies on therapeutic relationship in CAT and I am very interested in how it is influenced by the culture of the client and therapist.


Spyros Karvounis - Being creative versus being positive (Empathy to whom, the suffering person or the suffering psyche?)


The workshop will explore the origins of creativity out of the engagement of the two people with the therapy process.  Creation is when something new comes forward, but it stems from first in the emptying of our preconceived ideas and attitudes towards a solution to the issue at hand. Creativity is by far an attitude of emptying rather than of having positive ideas.  This fact does not preclude us from providing patients with something concretely positive or from teaching them skills or providing them with what they are missing, if this is understood to mean developing ‘positive resources’ and should not be confused with creativity. 

Four stage of CAT therapy will be outlined, and the creative opportunities in each one of these will be explored.  These are the Reformulation stage, the Constructive stage, the Deconstructive stage and finally the Ending stage.

Authenticity will be contemplated as an attribute or stance pertaining more specifically to the first two stages of therapy while the latter two engage us more in deconstruction and openness in reconstruction the nature of which cannot be foreseen.  In the last two stages, therapy requires from both the utmost attention and sensibility for the emergence of the new arrangement of the personality.

Specific examples will be examined to illustrate the above both provided by the presenter and brought by the participants.


Dr Karvounis is a practising Cognitive Analytic Therapist and Supervisor, Jungian Analyst, and Consultant Psychiatrist.  He has a long-term interest in the study of the philosophy of psychology and psychiatry, as a way of deepening the awareness of the premises of our thinking and understanding, to maintain insight into the limitations of each perspective and continue developing the therapeutic approach to the human psyche and its suffering.

His clinical practice and teaching are exemplified first by the integration of the above approaches and second by his interest and stance on the emergence of the awareness of the psyche in the life of the person and the therapy room.  Creativity, as the most notable aspect of the psyche, is approached with the responsibility it demands to by both individuals in therapy and by noticing its guiding signals during the course of therapy.

He has led clinical teams in his past NHS jobs.  He was the Clinical Director of a psychotherapy Day Hospital that operated along therapeutic community lines for nine years, four years of an intensive outpatient service providing Mentalization Therapy for people with personality disorders and two years of a Community Complex Care Team. He has led the development of psychotherapy services in the London Borough of Enfield.


Vicky Petratou – 'You, me and and the play space we share’
Working with rigidity, resistance and fixation on habitual problematic patterns by exploring the play space within the CAT model – The  incoorporation of  dramatherapy-based approaches to reach, engage and reflect with your patients in a creative ways that promote integration.


In this workshop we will look at how our patients can relate to their internal and interpersonal world using creative and imaginative methods. The therapeutic and active use of key arts therapy concepts including metaphor, aesthetic dstance, projection and improvisation can provide a means for encouraging our patients to engage in a embodied, emotional and reflective process that can help them explore and expand their reciprocal role repertoire. I will also demonstrate how some dramatherapeutic techniques and theoretical concepts have been invaluable in my work as a CAT psychotherapist and will illustrate this with some clinical material. I will also demostrate some creative mapping techniques that I have developed in my clinical practice which have been useful in helping my patients to engage with their complexity in a containing way such as the ‘house of self states’ .


Vicky Petratou is a Cognitive Analytic Psychotherapist, Supervisor, Trainer and a Dramatherapist. She has been practicing CAT for more than 20 years. She works as a Psychotherapist and Clinical Supervisor in private practice and for the NHS (at the Munro Clinic, Guys Hospital, London). She is a tutor and a marker for the IRRAPT Cognitive Analytic Psychotherapy Course and the St Thomas Practitioner Course and has tought in both CAT skills and Practitioner training courses. Vicky is interested in exploring how embodied playfulness and artistic expression can enrich the practice and theory of CAT


Cheryl Delisser and Vikki Aadahl – How Modelling Vulnerability as a Supervisor can allow for more Confident Supervisees, Therapists and Clients


As therapists, on a regular basis we encourage our clients to allow themselves to be vulnerable - to be honest and open, to share their flaws, to take positive risks, to take on board feedback, to learn from us, to take themselves out of their comfort zones and often to work towards good enough being good enough. As supervisors we often try to encourage our supervisees to do something very similar with us, but how confident are we in modelling this as supervisors? 

Cheryl provided supervision for Vikki during her specialist placement of clinical psychology training. Utilizing concepts of parallel processing both presenters will reflect on Cheryl’s attempts to facilitate an honest, open and authentic supervisory relationship and the impact this had on Vikki as a supervisee and in her CAT practice. Themes discussed will include vulnerability, authenticity, honesty, the use of laughter and humour, exposure, disclosure, empathy and humanness.  


Cheryl Delisser is a CAT Psychotherapist and Supervisor working in an NHS Step 4 Specialist Psychotherapy Service in North Manchester. Currently an ACAT Trustee, Cheryl has a strong passion for exploring ways of using CAT to increase relational awareness in non-therapy settings. In addition to experience of offering group and individual CAT and supervision, Cheryl has facilitated training on personality disorder, workshops on self-harm, themes of difference, and CAT groups. She currently also offers personal reformulations for trainees and CAT reflective practice groups for a 3rd sector organisation. 

Vikki Aadahl is a Clinical Psychologist working in an adult mental health service. She completed her specialist placement as part of clinical psychology training in a psychotherapy service being supervised in the use of CAT. This stemmed from an interest in developing more relational ways of working. Vikki is keen to continue developing knowledge and skills in CAT.


Steve Potter – Me and my identities: integrating a holistic sense of a 'distributed' self through moments of mindful mapping


This workshop presentation will introduce CAT as an identity therapy.  We live in a time of personal and social identity liberation, creativity, retreat and confusion which is acted out through identity politics and in psychotherapy presentations of personal rigidity, disorganistion and distress.  The CAT informed process of mapping therapeutically together can be designed to bring moments of flow, narrative coherence and integration.  These moments can add up to a healing and empowering journey of an enriched sense of self. 

This workshop will offer participants demonstration and practice of mapping skills and templates that can encourage moments of ‘This is me, this is how I fit together’.  The workshop will also offer guidance on how to teach yourself and clients daily homework practice of mindful mapping, ten minutes a day, as a form of healthy identity awareness.  


Steve Potter teaches and supervises CAT in a wide variety of ways to a wide variety of groups and is committed to promoting CAT as a versatile framework for relational mental health and personal and social well-being.  He is based in London. 


Saturday Workshops – 11:10 to 12:40


Theresa Turner – Letting the CAT out of the Bag: Using a Cognitive Analytic Approach with people with Autistic Spectrum Disorder


Current NICE guidelines suggest that the effective treatment for people with ASD and mental health problems is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. However, the evidence in reality suggests that CBT is effective in only a small percentage of cases due to the difficulty adapting this approach and the varied profiles of strengths and difficulties that people with ASD have. People with ASD often develop mental health problems due to difficulties adapting to the neuro-typical world and coping with intolerance. Many report having been bullied from early life, which has continued into adulthood making further education and the workplace inaccessible. Social isolation and marginalisation creates further difficulties in how people with ASD relate to others and themselves.

CBT tends to focus upon the self and approaches difficulties through a frame of personal dysfunction. Conversely, Cognitive Analytic Therapy, or CAT, is a collaborative form of therapy, which uses aspects of cognitive therapy integrated with object relations theory, to explore the way a person thinks, feels and acts, and the events and relationships that underlie these experiences (often from childhood or earlier in life). It is a programme of therapy that is tailored to a person’s individual needs and their goals for change and can be used flexibly especially with specific client groups such as people with ASD or LD. CAT has been adapted to use with people with LD and has also been used with people with ASD (Lloyd and Potter, 2013; Kelbrick and Radley, 2013). CAT emphasises the social aspects of distress highlighting early significant life events, relationships and therefore interpretations of the world. These aspects of an autistic person's experience are commonly relevant to mental illness. This is especially so for the relational aspects of an autistic person's life and highly relevant for the personality issues that arise in some people with ASD.

This presentation aims to share ideas and adaptations on the use of CAT with people with ASD and open up discussion regarding the benefits, creative application of the model and potential pitfalls to avoid.


I am a BPS chartered psychologist and member of the subdivision of forensic psychology and have extensive personal and professional experience of ASD. I am also a senior forensic psychologist and forensic ASD specialist for the South London and Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust and I worked as a senior psychologist for the Autism Diagnostic Research Centre in Southampton until recently. I currently also for the Oxford ADHD Centre conducting adult ASD assessments and therapy with people with ASD and ADHD. I occasionally teach at the Institute of Psychiatry Psychology and Neuroscience, Kings College in London and train mental health professionals in the support of people with neurodevelopmental disorders. I am in the first year of my CAT practitioner training on the Brighton course.


Annie Nehmad - Hypnotic and Self-hypnotic Scaling


A Technique for Clients to discover their unconscious resources, and the influence they can bring to bear on their feelings, moods, symptoms, etc.

  • Brief introduction to Solution Focused Thinking, and the well-established Scaling Question.
  • Description with live clinical demonstration (volunteer needed!) of a fascinating and very powerful development of Scaling by Paul Koeck: Self-Hypnotic Scaling. This is intended to be done initially within a session, led by therapist, and then practised at home by client.
  • If time allows, participants may practise the technique in pairs.
  • Participants will receive handouts summarising the technique.


Annie Nehmad is a founder member of ACAT. She has been a Solution Focused Therapist since 1995, and incorporates elements of its theory and practice into her CAT work.


Clive Turpin – Café CAT: An open group conversation about therapist authenticity: what it means, looks like and how it might make a difference


Café CAT is a Catalyse event that has evolved from the format used by Café Psychologique of an open group conversation although with a little more structure.  Frequently during conferences we have limited time in the room for a full group conversation on a topic and, therefore, offering up this alternative workshop that also embraces some creativity and difference.

Clive will introduce the topic and encourage the voice of others to contribute on the subject of therapist authenticity.  This provides a valuable and rich opportunity to explore the topic as a group through conversation, rather than presenting a specific idea or approach in a usual workshop format.  We don’t know where the conversation will go, which is both curious and exciting.


Clive is a CAT psychotherapist and supervisor working in a Psychotherapy Service in North Manchester, and runs a small private practice.  He is an Executive of Catalyse and coordinates personal reformulations for trainees and has established Café CAT in Manchester.  He has many interests including brief work, using CAT and Psychodynamic Interpersonal Therapy with self-harm and training.  He’s also a joiner and plays the piano.


Ella Knight - The Space Between: What happens if we start ‘being’ and stop ‘doing’? 
Between the letters and diagrams of a CAT therapy there is the possibility of a play space. How do we learn to trust this potentially rich, unknown territory, ensuring it continues to be a space that is therapeutic?


How can we learn to trust the potential of ‘the unknown’ that a creative space needs to enable the unpredictability and spontaneity of play and creativity? If left un-facilitated this space can become scary or at times dangerous. For creativity to be explored successfully and feel therapeutic, as therapists and clients we need to feel contained and safe despite the chaos this work so often instigates.

I will be sharing examples of my clinical work that have ventured into this unknown territory of ‘being with’ the process of play and through doing so provided expression of affect and/ or insight, enabling possible exits from maladaptive procedures, in a way that wouldn’t have been possible otherwise.

The workshop will be made up of sharing clinical case material, practical experiential work and group discussion.


I originally trained as a Dramatherapist and started working as a therapist within the homeless sector and in prisons. 

I have since worked for seventeen years with the NHS, the last ten years as a C.A.T. Therapist. I have predominantly specialized in working with adults with severe and enduring mental health needs initially within a Regional Secure Unit in West London and subsequently for the Kent and Medway Community Mental Health Team. For the last year I have specialized in eating disorders working as a CAT Psychotherapist and Supervisor within the team at Vincent Square Eating Disorder Service, as part of the Central and Northwest London Trust.

I have also worked for many years part time for the Priory and been able to explore and extend my practice through this very different client group.

My special interest is in working creatively with the idea of the observing self and I have been developing a framework of working within CAT therapy through the use of projected play for many years now; (using small object and a sand tray). My work as a Dramatherapist is integral to my use of C.A.T.


Liz McCormick – How to enjoy writing a prose reformulation and the value of matching words to feelings in CAT


The offer of written communication is rare and generous in the therapeutic field.

This workshop will offer creative ways of approaching writing a reformulation – often described with a certain amount of dread and fear of writing! We will be loosening our imaginative and reflective abilities through playful engagement with cards and visualization.  This helps us move away from any ‘striving’ procedures, releasing us to match words with observation and felt experience.  Matching words to feeling can be very moving for both patient and therapist.


Liz McCormick is a founder member of ACAT and currently a Trustee. Recently retired from clinical practice she has over 35 years of clinical experience. She is also a teacher, trainer, supervisor, and writer.  She is the author of several books including the CAT self help book Change For The better.


Cheryl Delisser – Laughter - An Exit for Narcissism


As I’ve become more experienced and comfortable with myself as a therapist, I’ve found that I have lots of fun with many of my patients. Thinking more specifically about narcissistic patients I’ve seen how feeling confident enough to let myself laugh, to openly laugh at myself, to laugh with and develop shared jokes allows us to develop a strong and authentic therapeutic alliance where we seem more able to work side by side. Furthermore, working in this way then seems to allow for the internalisation of a relaxed, equal, accepting to relaxed, equal, accepted type reciprocal role. Helping a client to practice this role outside of therapy both inter and intra-personally can provide an exit from the usual superior or inferior experiences. Consequently, clients report feeling more comfortable seeing themselves as equal and good enough thereby improving their relationship with themselves and with others.

During this workshop I will share my reflections on how to feel more confident laughing using true authenticity, how to use laughter effectively, why and how it sometimes goes wrong, what can be done when this happens and why I think laughter is so effective as a therapeutic tool.


Cheryl Delisser is a CAT Psychotherapist and Supervisor working in an NHS Step 4 Specialist Psychotherapy Service in North Manchester. Currently an ACAT Trustee, Cheryl has a strong passion for exploring ways of using CAT to increase relational awareness in non-therapy settings. In addition to experience of offering group and individual CAT and supervision, Cheryl has facilitated training on personality disorder, workshops on self-harm, themes of difference, and CAT groups. She currently also offers personal reformulations for trainees and CAT reflective practice groups for a 3rd sector organisation. 



ACAT Calendar for April
99th April 2018
CAT Supervisor Training: ACAT Relational Skills in CAT Supervision Residential
1313th April 2018
CAT Introductory Event: 2 Day Introduction to CAT - offered by Catalyse
CPD Event: CAT Research Conference - a joint ACAT & Catalyse event
1919th April 2018
CAT Introductory Event: Introduction to Cognitive Analytic Therapy - offered by Jurai Darongkamas & Jeanette McLoughlin
2525th April 2018
CPD Event: Unmet needs and Unmanageable Feelings: CAT in Action - offered by South Wales CAT Training Ltd
2727th April 2018
CAT Introductory Event: CAT 2 Day Introductory Workshop - offered by Northumberland, Tyne & Wear NHS Foundation Trust
CPD Event: Mapping Mortality in CAT - offered by NECAT

Contact Details

ACAT Administration Manager:Maria Cross

ACAT Administrator:Alison Marfell

ACAT Financial Administrator:Louise Barter

Postal Address:ACAT
PO Box 6793
United Kingdom

Phone:+44(0) 1305 263 511

Office Hours:Monday to Friday
9am to 5pm

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